I joined, before that learned about plastic shamans, trying to get a book on Shamanism

[darkmage7777777.livejournal.com]

I joined this group for the reason that being that its all that I am for (animals have spirits I think, and spritality is fun). right in the group description also brings up some stuff I recently found out and would like to inquire others about, plastic shamanism and general scammers and people doing what some call misappropriation of culture and all that stuff. And I didn't even know about allot of the stuff going on till a few weeks ago (and though leo Rutherford and carlos castiana are a-ok people and sources for knowledge).

It all started with me just trying to find a good book on shamanism! So I asked in one place http://community.livejournal.com/neo_shamanism/10979.html and also Lupa has a list of some of the few books she has reviewed (among the hundreds she has reviewed) floating around some places. 
     

So I thought, I will check Amazon on the reviews of each book, some having more negative feedback then others, I checked the complaints that the user listed one two stars so I could listen to a complaint if someone had it about the book (and judge it to how much merit it had), for one book called the 4 noble truths or something had people saying stuff along the lines of that "the 4 truths is the 4 obvious statements mine German mother could have told me, that following them to the fullest unrealistic to follow in human society as are a lot of ideals". So yea finding out that a book is all about 4 obvious statements and not a whole lot about magic (other then some generic psychology) then that saved a lot of money with something I almost thought about getting judging from cover and name.

                Primary reason I would look into reviews for each it because I wanted it to be a good book about practicing shamanism, doing spirit journeys, rituals and all sorts of stuff. History is good (and I do know quite a bit about world history) though I still seek how to do something various mystics have done first hand and how to do it yourself, and not something some secular philosopher or historian looks into as something ‘other’ people do with no implication of one doing it themselves (or how you would do it).

                Anyhow quite a few of the reviews the books had some statements along the lines of ‘this person is a fraud, they are a con-artist taking native culture and selling it for their own profit”. So that complicated things being that about every book had this except for this one that had a very few reviews (and being that a bad review is 1/10 usually and it had 3 that may not say much). I figured I would try the thorsons way of shamanism by Leo Rutherford book (the current book I have on shamanism) on amazon and no one reviewed it : / so weird, not that popular or well read it seems. Then I searched Leo Rutherford on the web, and one of the first things I found was a place which is on the lookout for plastic shamans and stuff was talked about on their fourms http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=246.0  http://www.newagefraud.org/ as being a plastic shaman who made up stories of learning stuff from some Indian master, or might have learned from a fraud himself  noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! : o ,

Well I kind of did want another source of information anyway being that I thought that some guy from (and living in) England might not be the perfect and absolute source if information on North American shamanism (or it in general), I knew that from the start. The book also cites or talks about briefly throughout it Carlos Castaneda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Castaneda and I think Don Juan (about taking pyote and seeing the latter).  Carlos Castaneda is also cited in some other books I think I saw while browsing around books for shamanism, some person saying that “I was one of Don Juan students too” or something. Then latter found out that Carlos Castaneda might have been a frauder himself, so that that infamous person and other people who cite him might be questionable guides to a spiritual path. Probably the biggest (and funnest) argument against him on the wikapedia article is that it says that in one of his books he talks about being somewhere at a certain time, but it was documented that he was actually in the university of California library (likely doing research for a book!) the whole time, particularly in one book where he says he is on some quest at the time, it was documented specifically he was actually in the library reading a book on someone else’s experiences of peyote : P

Of course I ‘still’ want a good authentic book (or a good source of information) about shamanism for myself, source of information about rituals, spiritual journeys (and how to) and doing all sorts of mystical and magical junk. Of course oral lessons can be ok, but being that I am a modern person whose memory isn’t perfect (people who have been illiterate are often able to remember huge ballads stories epics, and tombs of information all by memory and recall them word by word; alas I am literate though that gives a advantage on itself of being able to access a lot of information beyond my memory) books are just handy, so that’s why I want one. Considering a lot of questionable sources of information (especially on shamanism) though wouldn’t want to spend money or more importantly waste time.

Luckily I can trust most of you no one is overly trying to profit from this (to my knowledge no one has said something along the lines of being a Inca shaman [who is not actually one] who is offering a sweat lodge retreat to be a shaman too for only 149.99), anyway I can trust most of yeas being that no one is overly lying or exaderating about anything and being relatively honest, including theirantheropes who read  lots of books : P

Long story short, yes I am still looking for a book, and or good source of information (of do it yourself or with others, how to help others stuff). Of shamanism in many different cultures, particularly North American being that well I live here :D but other ones would be good too, being that the spirit is universal.

Comments

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

Primary reason I would look into reviews for each it because I wanted it to be a good book about practicing shamanism

There are few (in my humble opinion) good books on the 'practicals' of shamanism - and almost all of those books that have decent exercises, still have culturally disrespectful themes within them; like the seminal Way of the Shaman by Michael Harner. You often have to be willing to take the very bad, with the very good, in shamanic literature.

The other thing is that spirit journeys is not something that lends itself to literature well. I suppose it's why cultural (and even contemporary cultural) shamanism lends itself so well to being an oral, or interpersonal tradition. I do share information on journeying with others, but not in books, or even on websites. And I think this is because journeying presents more viable dangers (I feel) than visualisation; it's irresponsible to just put quality 'how to' manuals, if you're a shaman, then you're working closely with the spirits, and most spirits that I've met don't want you to just teach people how to do something without being able to make sure that the chances that they hurt themselves are minimalised. I could be wrong, but I think there is more than just commercial reasons for their being a lack of these books out there - but also spiritual ones as well.

Newagefraud.org is a very harsh and unforgiving site. They take the extremism too far - I think. But these are often people from cultures who have been scammed over and over again; they have no reason to trust, and certainly no reason to trust, like or respect the sorts of authors who will take their cultural knowledges and regurgitate them in a sanitised way, and then get paid a crapload of money for it.

I am very against plastic shamanism, and I don't take from other cultures - I may live in Australia, but I'm not an Indigenous Aboriginal and I don't (and won't ever, until they say so) have a right to their stories or their Dreamings or magics. And to be honest, I don't even want that right - my life isn't about appropriating someone else's hard won wisdom, it's about finding my own.

Of course I ‘still’ want a good authentic book (or a good source of information) about shamanism for myself, source of information about rituals, spiritual journeys (and how to) and doing all sorts of mystical and magical junk.

Someone may (I hope) correct me, but it is of my opinion that you won't find a good 'authentic' book out there on the practices and how-tos of cultural shamanism. You either have to live with that culture responsible and mindfully; or join us contemporary shamanists who have taken responsibility for our magical paths and seek our own ways of doing these things without disrespecting other cultures - like lupabitch's work with therioshamanism, for example.

I highly recommend you seek out the non-practical book Shamans and Neo-Shamans by Robert Wallis. Which explains the nuances and politics of Indigenous shamanism vs. contemporary or neo-shamanism in the most intelligent way that I've seen so far. It explains why good practical books (particularly of shamanism in different cultures) don't really exist; and also explores why they don't necessarily need to, if we explore our own potential as shamanists within our own mottled culture...

[valkyriur.livejournal.com]

You either have to live with that culture responsible and mindfully; or join us contemporary shamanists who have taken responsibility for our magical paths and seek our own ways of doing these things without disrespecting other cultures...

I very much agree with this.

I had written an entry, a long time ago, about nearly any religion being very difficult to learn and practice without being immersed into it. Little nuances, such as bowing of the head during certain portions of a prayer in a Catholic Mass are more learned than taught.

[darkmage7777777.livejournal.com]

I guess by authentic I mean authenticaly good for spirital knowlege with rituals and spirital exercises (some would call magic), like how to get to a power animal, I could use the exercise in the leo rutherford book (which is suprisingly simmilar to some others, as if everyone is referencing the same source).... but I think the book is a little cursed now learning that the author may be accociated with hoaxers : P So I will avoid the book if I can. So I am looking for something not necicarly purely or truely one shamanistic tradtion, (though could be, and if it is then that is swell too), what some I guess call 'core shamanism'.

Though I don't know about non-pratical books, history is interesting, and it results in a lot of the present and future. but time I have (as with all people) is limited and I would like to spend more time on the 'fun stuff' even if its indeed the hardest, progress more on it. To summerize a lot of history and politics, people dissagree on a lot of things, some stuff happens, people do what they do and here we are today. Though mabey may read a bit of that shamans and neo-shamans book.

Though I guess its true that one could (should) explore potential as shamans within our own modern culture, which is what I agree with and sort of do, doing what a shaman would do in their own community with another community, after all if you do aquire greater power to help others, and you dont use it for that then what good would come of it?